207: Astrology and Infidelity with Karen Hawkwood

Hi everyone, I'm Dr. Marie Murphy and I'm a non-judgmental infidelity coach. If you are engaging in anything you think counts as infidelity, I can help you deal with your feelings, clarify what you want, and make decisions about what you're going to do. A lot of the so-called advice that's out there for people who are cheating is little more than thinly veiled judgment at best, but that is not what I provide. I give you guidance and support that respects the fullness of your humanity and the complexity of your situation no matter what you are doing or have been doing. 

When you're ready to resolve your infidelity situation in a way that you feel great about, there are two ways we can work together. You can enroll in my online course, You're Not The Only One, which contains teachings and assignments that go beyond what I offer on the podcast, or we can work together one-on-one via Zoom. To get started with either of these options, go to my website, mariemurphyphd.com. I can't wait to meet you.

Marie Murphy: Today, I have a very special treat for you all. I am going to be talking with Karen Hawkwood, who is also known as KJ Sassypants. The understanding that I've gotten from Karen/KJ is that she equally enjoys being referred to as Karen and as KJ. So what I tend to do is toggle between calling her Karen and calling her KJ, and I may do that today as we're talking. But I want you to know that I'm going to be talking to the same person this whole time. There is no intention to confuse here. Karen and KJ are the same person. 

I've invited Karen onto the show to talk about how it can be helpful to look at infidelity through the lens of astrology, and more specifically, her particular take on astrology or her particular way of doing astrology. And we're gonna get deep into that. I'm gonna let her tell you a lot more about that in a moment. 

But before I do, I want to make it clear that by offering these perspectives, I'm trying to share a way of looking at the human experience that has been very useful for me and of course for millions of other humans too. But I'm not trying to push astrology on you if you want nothing to do with it.

That said, if you don't know anything about astrology or you have been unfavorably disposed towards astrology in the past, today's episode will almost certainly offer you new perspectives on what astrology is and is not. And if you know and love astrology already, today's episode may bring you to know it and love it even more. So with that, welcome KJ. Thank you so much for joining me here.

Karen Hawkwood: Thanks, Marie. I so appreciate you having me. I'm excited to be here.

Marie Murphy: Yay. Awesome. Please tell everyone a little bit about yourself, where they can find you, all the important things.

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely. My government name is indeed Karen Hawkwood. I was designated as KJ Sassypants on Facebook, what seems like a million years ago now and there's a lot of people who know me really only as KJ Sassypants. So I always make sure that people know that's also who I am. 

I have been a practitioner, I use that more general term for reasons. So I've been a practitioner for about 12 years now, and I am trained as a coach. I trained with Martha Beck, so I was trained in the life coach training and the master coach. I am a certified Master Life Coach. I don't usually use that credential but it's there. 

I also have 42 years now, which makes me sound older than I am, of being fascinated by astrology and what it can show us about human people. So that first came into my world when I was 15 and I've done quite a bit of training, quite a bit of study in a lot of different directions. I've been doing this two-thirds of my life.

Marie Murphy: Very cool. Tell people where they can find you if they want to learn more about you and how they can work with you.

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely. You can find me at karenhawkwood.com, which is K-A-R-E-N-H-A-W-K-W-O-O-D.

Marie Murphy: Let's get into it. We're going to start with a question that is intended to be provocative. Does our astrology destined us to cheat?

Karen Hawkwood: Going right in for the jugular here. Fortunately, my answer to that is no. I would hope anyone's answer to that would be no. I would be very distressed. If anyone answered that question in the affirmative.

Marie Murphy: Right. And I mean, this may get us quickly into what astrology is and what it isn't and what some people think it may be but is not.

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely. I will do my best to keep this brief. It's a topic I have a lot of feelings about. So in my hands, I really have to be good about saying astrology is really a lot of things to a lot of people. It's an old and deep art. There's a lot to it. 

But I think when it comes to people, that deterministic and hard predictive approach is both untrue, just pragmatically untrue. I've listened to a lot of people give predictions over the decades I've been doing this and I've watched the people in question to see what would happen and sometimes it happened and sometimes it didn't. 

So just in terms of empirically in my own experience, it doesn't work out that way. And also just my worldview doesn't work that way. That doesn't fit into the way that I understand people in the world. So that's not how I work with it.

Marie Murphy: Okay. So astrology is not predictive, at least.

Karen Hawkwood: Not predictive, not deterministic, doesn't make you do things.

Marie Murphy: Right. Right. Let's also talk a little bit about, I mean, I think my impression, maybe this is limited to me, but my impression is just about everybody knows what their sun sign is.

Karen Hawkwood: That's been my experience too, yeah.

Marie Murphy: Right. And my impression is also that many people don't know that they have anything other than a sun sign. So why don't you say a little bit more about what I like to think of as people's astrological makeup or astrological charter, astrological constitution. 

Karen Hawkwook: Absolutely. 

Marie Murphy: And the fullness of that.

Karen Hawkwood: Yeah, because it is a whole like a tapestry. It's a whole fabric of self. And there's tremendous complexity to it. If we just look at the absolute sort of core minimum, how would I say, number of data points. I used to be a data analyst, so I still have a lot of that language. There are 1,728 possible combinations.

Marie Murphy: OK, just for the lay audience here, combinations of what?

Karen Hawkwood: A planet, a sign, and a house. And those are technical descriptions of the system that you might not understand, but they're the basic building blocks. It's like nouns, verbs, and prepositions, I guess, in English, you can't really make a sentence without them. 

So if you just look at those basics, there's that many possibilities. And you don't, you know, the number isn't important, but I want people to understand that there's so much diversity even within this very basic vocabulary because of all the ways that can be combined.

And so what I found, and again this is one of the things that is really different, I won't say unique, but I think unusual in the way that I work with astrology with people, is that what I'm looking at and able very effectively to see through this language, I think of it also as a language, is the places in that tapestry, that complex diversity of someone's nature, where there's parts of us that don't get along.

Marie Murphy: Okay, I'm gonna slow you down here real quick. I really wanna talk about that, but for someone who doesn't know anything about what the heck we're talking about here, let me see if I can say this in terms that are basic but accurate enough, and you tell me where I'm wrong. So I think what Karen's saying here is when we're born, we're not just concerned about where the sun was in the sky.

Karen Hawkwood: Oh no, there's lots more. So you want me to go into just the basic mechanics? 

Marie Murphy: Just briefly, yeah. 

Karen Hawkwood: So somebody's astrological chart is a function of looking at where all the planets are. And we call it, I know the sun and moon are not planets, but they are bodies in the sky. Different people use different sets of bodies, but we just go with the sun, the moon and the planets.

Marie Murphy: At the time when someone is born.

Karen Hawkwood: And also the place. The place actually really matters. So it's location and time and space. At that time and from that point on the planet, you look at where the planets are aligned against the stars, and there's a certain belt of stars that has constellations in it that form the signs of the zodiac. 

And there's some technical stuff that I'm not going to obviously get into it, but we still use in Western astrology the alignment of those constellations from where they were 2,000 years ago. As of now, the astronomy is different than it was then. That's well understood. There are good reasons why we still use the constellations the way they were 2,000 years ago. But sometimes people get upset about that difference. And I just want to say we all know that's the case and it's fine and lots of conversations about that.

So, the constellations give us the signs, which is Leo, Sagittarius, Aquarius, right? We're all familiar with these. So, the sun sign is simply which of those signs of the zodiac the sun was lined up with. But you also have the moon and Venus and Saturn and Pluto, and they're all where they are. They can be in all in completely different places.

And then there's the final piece is that's related more to like the where, the feet on the ground part, which are called the houses. And we can really just think of these as archetypal areas of life, like family, career, partnership, creative expression. And so you have the who, this is how I teach it and how I think about it. 

You have the who, all these little people inside you, which is the planets. You have the how and the why, which is the sign. And you can think of that as being like how they're dressed, what sort of costume they have on, and then we have the where. Where's the action taking place? Where is this person in their particular clothing doing the thing that they do? Are they in the office? Are they in the bedroom? Are they in the basement? Are they at the front door?

And then the final piece is all of those people, at least potentially, have relationships or conversations happening with each other. And so those conversations matter. So that's the basic structure of what we see as being snapshotted at the moment that you were born in that time and place.

Marie Murphy: Amazing. So if this is all totally going over your head. No problem, there's many ways to learn more about this, but the point that we wanna stress, or at least the royal we want to stress, is you're more than just your sun sign. There's a lot of complex stuff going on astrologically. This isn't just like, oh, whatever. Like, what are the things they say in like the like magazines? Like, if you're a Sagittarius, like you're going to have a bad sex life with someone who's a Leo or, you know, like all that… 

Karen Hawkwood: Exactly. Never date a Taurus. Like all of that nonsense.

Marie Murphy: Right. All of that stuff is shit. It's fucking shit. Sorry, not sorry.

Karen Hawkwood: I don't want to trash anybody's like reading the Cosmo astrology columns habit, but it's not valid information in my experience.

Marie Murphy: Right. And the reason why is because we are so much more complex than any one astrological detail of ours, such as our sun sign. And that's why. We're not just saying, or at least I'm not just saying it's shit just to be mean.

Karen Hawkwood: No, and I never want to yuck someone's yum. That's just, I don't shit on people's cakes. That's not how I am. But from an evidentiary basis, it's not helpful.

Marie Murphy: That's a pretty good kind of basic introduction to the complexity of astrology. Now let's get into the kind of like, how does this stuff make us who we are?

Karen Hawkwood: So the best metaphor or sort of analogous understanding that has worked really well for me over the years is to think of it a bit like the genetics of your psyche. And there is actually a component that I work with of charts that looks at kind of an inheritance thing, but the point I'm trying to make is not so much like with genetics, you inherit it from your family. 

But if you have genes through both sides of your family, let's say for alcoholism, which is a thing, right? There are genetics that predispose someone towards alcoholism and from an epigenetic standpoint, if a lot of the people in both lines of your family have in fact been alcoholics, then that gene has been, I mean, I know this is very rough from a scientific standpoint, but that gene has been switched on.

Does that doom you to be an alcoholic? I think most of us would say no. What it does do is give you more of a vulnerability for alcoholism or perhaps addiction in a broad sense, right? It makes you more vulnerable to it, but you still have agency. You still have choice. You still have a tremendous amount of different ways that you can engage with that predilection, that tendency. I'm kind of being silly here, but if you're largely Italian in your gene structure, does that mean you have to talk with your hands?

Marie Murphy: Oh my god.

Karen Hawkwood: You really, you know, could you sit on your hands and speak in a much more sort of Scandinavian way? Yeah, if you really try. For whatever reason, I'm being silly because I wanted a silly illustration, right? But the temperament that we have, and this is really more the way that I approach it, is it's a system of temperament. I do believe, and I wanna be careful about how I say this, so let me, I'll say it, and then I'm gonna follow it up with something.

I don't believe we can change our temperament. However, I also don't believe that we need to because we have so much choice within how we express our temperament that I don't feel like anyone, and this is just not my experience, no one is trapped or confined or doomed because of their temperament. I often think about this, here's another way to talk about it, because I often talk about archetypal nature through the astrological chart as being like our bone structure. 

So with the soft tissue parts of our bodies, we can change them maybe not in infinitely, but we have a lot of flexibility. You can dye your hair, you can cut your hair, you can grow your hair, you can get tattoos, you can get them removed, you can put on makeup and different clothing, you can change your body size, you can change your body composition, right?

But I am 5 foot 3 if I stand up really straight, and I cannot, through any force of nature that I am aware of, no matter how strong my will might be around it, make myself six feet tall.

Marie Murphy: But talk about what the corollary is in astrological terms.

Karen Hawkwood: So if you have, for instance, archetypally, a really strong need for freedom and newness, which there's two or three of the archetypes that I work with in my system have that as a core set of needs. You cannot switch that off. You can choose to ignore it and pretend it's not there and try to suppress it. I don't recommend it, but you can. But you also can choose to meet that need in a lot of different ways.

Marie Murphy: Yes, 100%. And what I'd love for you to talk about a little bit before we get into how we work with our tendencies is, how do I want to phrase this? How astrology informs our tendencies, or what are the sorts of tendencies that astrology informs?

Karen Hawkwood: Okay, that I'm gonna do my best to be very succinct because it's a big and a good question. It's an excellent question. Through my lens, right, in my hands, and I say that because all systems of understanding human people have gaps. My system has gaps. I'm well aware of that.

I just think they all do. And so we work with the gaps because of the benefits that system brings. And this system, in my experience, also has a lot of benefits. So I haven't formally organized my archetypes into a series of schema, which I think would be the best answer to your question. But in a general sense, I can say, it shows me which parts of you and how strongly you need familiarity and predictability and or sometimes it's both, often it's both, newness and freedom and autonomy.

It shows me to what degree your relational style is oriented towards pragmatic, earthy, incarnated stuff, whether that's physical familiarity or touch as a physical experience of relating or relating through more of an emotion, like emotional level and emotional closeness, relating through a more intellectual or social kind of engagement, which we tend to elevate the emotional above all else. And I've seen that be tricky for people because of the way that they're made, because that's just not the way they're made. 

And then finally, relating through a, there's basically four groups here, relating through a sense of possibility, a sense of an orientation towards the future, and towards a lot of possibilities and openness and sort of experience of the moment of potential.

Marie Murphy: Are we talking about your observations of people's styles of relating within romantic relationships or quasi-romantic relationships or sexual relationships or are you talking about like any kind of relationships?

Karen Hawkwood: It really can apply to any relationship. This can be parents to children, this can be children to parents, this can be siblings, friends, coworkers, business partners, creative partners. We can focus it absolutely on romantic relationships since that's a lot of how you're serving your people. But relationality is a very broad dimension of it.

Marie Murphy: For sure. Yeah, no, I just wanted to clarify what we were talking about.

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely. And sometimes we have a relational part of us that wants one of those things and a relational part of us that wants another of those things. And then we have to work with that push-pull. So those are just some of the things that this there's more but I want to just keep yacking. Through my lens this is part of what I can see about people.

Marie Murphy: Yeah okay. There's two ways that I want to go from here and I'll tell you what both of them are and we can choose our own adventure.

Karen Hawkwood: Okay, I love that.

Marie Murphy: We'll see if I can even remember the two options that I presented by the time I finished telling you what the second one is. One thing I wanna make sure we start to cover soon is your particular emphasis on having different parts of us within us and how we want to be aware of working with these parts of ourselves as consciously as possible. 

The other thing that I'm guessing is that some people are listening to this and they really want to know what sorts of astrological signatures, generally speaking, tend in which of the directions you were just referring to. Do you want to speak briefly to that second one? You don't have to. If that's like something you just don't want to touch and you'd rather like talk to people about their specifics. That's totally fine.

Karen Hawkwood: No, I think that building up a sort of taxonomy of categories is how we function as human people and being able to, I know I do, but I think we all do and I can offer them fairly briefly. My system of archetypes is 13 figures, and I'm not going to drag everyone through all 13. The grouping like that, those relational groupings that like orientation around that, that's the four elements. The four elements seems so simplistic.

Marie Murphy: Tell people what the four elements are.

Karen Hawkwood: The four in this system, because there's different systems of elements, it's fire. So I was, so in the order that I was speaking, it's earth, water, air, and fire. And that seems really reductive to just throw people into four groups like Hogwarts houses or something. But there's a lot of nuance that's possible in it. And so that's a categorization system that I use a lot.

Marie Murphy: It might be super helpful to just quickly recap what you said earlier about those relational styles and associate them with their element. I think there are some people that are gonna be super interested in that. And also, if you're comfortable speaking to this, like I'm talking myself out of this question as I try to articulate it because I know it's more complicated, but I bet people are gonna wanna know, like, oh, you know, like if I have like a certain sign that's a fire sign, does that mean that I'm likely to relate to others in this way? And maybe while we're at it, can we also talk about which astrological signs are fire, water, air, and earth?

Karen Hawkwood: I can say that. What I do want to emphasize with people though is that understanding this sort of elemental tendency is way more than just your Sun in that sign and like you said a lot of people don't know where all the rest of that stuff is and some of that stuff because we have 10 bodies with the Sun the moon and the 8 planets and yes I do count Pluto as a planet. Let's not go there. 

Some of those 10 are more important than others for this relational orientation, because you have other parts of you that are not relational, and that's good and fine. So there's a lot of complexity to that I can't, isn't gonna be useful for me to start spouting astro babble at this point to people.

Marie Murphy: I think even that point was really important and saying what you're about to say will be a nice compliment to that.

Karen Hawkwood: Good, yeah, I do, but I can tell you which of the 12 signs are which, because we have three of each. So the earthy orientation to relationships, but also kind of to life, I'm just specifying it for this, is to have things be known, solid, familiar, consistent, and supportive on a pragmatic level. 

And I don't mean to make this sound boring or dull because it's not, but this is the sense that you know what your relationship isn't. Not that there can't be some unknown to that, but in a general sense it's pretty solid and you know what it's gonna probably be today and you know what it's probably gonna be a week from now. Of course it might not be, but we want to think that we want to feel that we know that, right? And we want the bills to be paid and the trash to be taken out, and things to be where they're supposed to be. It doesn't mean we're ridiculous about that.

Marie Murphy: But we might be.

Karen Hawkwood: Well, some of us might be. Some of us might be a little more than others, for sure. But it's this very embodied orientation. And so the earth signs are Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn. The next orientation is water.

And water's priority is that sense of emotional closeness. It's that, and it's a little bit hard to define because it's not a quantitative thing, right? But it's that sense that you are in the flow of another person's being, and that they are - they share themselves with you, and you share yourself with them. You know what's important to them. You know how they're feeling.

They know how you're feeling. None of that has really anything to do with whether the bills are paid or the trash is taken out. And emotion as an orientation towards relationship rises and falls. It's always that flow is always happening and watery people tend to prioritize that, but it doesn't need quite as much consistency. The great fear for watery people though is being cut off from that flow.

Having a sense of just like the withdrawal or absence of emotional flow is deeply upsetting and frightening. And so the water signs are Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces. The social and intellectual orientation towards relating, and this has been a really interesting thing that I've worked with a lot of people around, because again, we tend to not consider this as valid of a way of relating is from really wanting to, it wants to connect. It's an orientation that's very relational, very much about wanting to connect with other people, but It's through the mind, it's through ideas, it's through talking about and discussing and unfolding our mental perception of the world. On a relational level, one of the things that's really important, so this is air, didn't say that at the beginning, sorry.

One of the things that's really important to airy people is to do things because they're the right things. So air is very driven by principle, and principles are ideas. They are a framework of thought, a framework of rational perception that says, this is right and this is wrong, and we do the right thing because it's the right thing. Now again, all people are made up of all different kinds of things. Not everybody. Most people are not going to be… 

Marie Murphy: All one thing or another.

Karen Hawkwood: But if you have a part of you that is strongly, that's one of your relational sort of parts that has a lot of this air stuff going on, it's probably gonna be really important to you that we don't just all do what we feel in the moment. That's more of a watery thing. And again, I'm not criticizing it. Water does what feels right in the moment, but it doesn't have to adhere to this sort of very structured idea of right and wrong. But for airy people, that's extremely important.

And they also want to relate in a way that's not overly emotional, and overly is so variable. That's gonna be really individual. So please don't take a particular setting from that. But airy people need a little more space. Doesn't mean they're not very focused on relationship, but they're not doing it from an emotional place.

And a lot of us consider that problematic or deficient, and it's not if you're an airy person. So the air signs are Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. And then the relational orientation of fire is through possibility and excitement and challenge and discovery and newness. And that is from, obviously, I think from the sound of it, really fun, and also can be difficult to sustain in the earthy world. This is fire, and so fire is the dimension of us that has the hardest time with earth.

Fire and earth are a set of complements, right? Like a yin-yang. But we live in bodies, whether we want to or not. And there's a lot of us that don't. That we'd be much happier if we didn't have to. But of these four elements, Earth has like 26%, right? They have an extra, that element has an extra edge because we have to live in the earthy world. 

So the fire sign, so fiery orientation to relationships is about play. It's about fun. It's about excitement.It's about things that we've never done before. And it's a real sense of vividness to the experience. And the fire signs are Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius.

Marie Murphy: Cool. One of the things that I want to stress in simple and perhaps simplistic terms is one of the things what KJ has just said to us illustrates that we are different in some very, if not necessarily intractable ways, then some pretty fundamental ways. And that doesn't mean that there can't be gaps bridged, but one of the things that I think that astrology can help us do is cultivate respect for our differences and our different ways of being in the world and doing things in the world and within relationships more specifically.

Karen Hawkwood: Yes. I could not agree more. Relational work is some of my favorite work that I've done in my practice, because helping people understand both how each of them is made in that bone structure kind of way and What are the possibilities for that bridging that you talked about? There's always possibilities for the bridging. The question is how much work is it going to be…

Marie Murphy: And do you want to do that work?

Karen Hawkwood: And do you wanna do that work? And are you capable? Are you resourced enough? Do you have the skills? Does a set of people have what they need to build that bridge? Because some bridges are like throwing a plank down over a little stream, and other bridges are like the Golden Gate. So that's the only question. It's not, can you? It's, what's it going to take? And then, do you want to?

And can you? Do you have what you need to do that work. But we can't, again, going back to that perspective of I cannot will myself to be six feet tall. And if I'm five foot three, and my partner is six foot three, like my ex-husband, that foot of height is a difference between us, and it is always gonna be there and just how we deal with it.

Marie Murphy: What I was about to say was I can't grow a tail, but I can sure as hell wear one that isn't biologically mine every single day if I want to. But that's a whole other thing. What I'd like to take us to is your parts of self approach to astrology and then from there get into how the ways in which we work with our parts of self may relate to infidelity. 

Karen Hawkwood: Okay. So, again, without trying to outline my whole archetypal system just for time and complexity, if we just keep working with the elemental approach, I think that's a really sufficiently distinct framework that still illustrates some of those.

Marie Murphy: Do you want to say a little bit about your archetypal system?

Karen Hawkwood: I can, sure. I just, I know it's my favorite thing to talk about and I can run away with it.

Marie Murphy: I'll cut you off if it gets too crazy, but say something about it.

Karen Hawkwood: Okay. So I'll just run through the names of my figures because I think they're very illuminative. That's been my intention anyway, to name them as accurately as I've learned to see them in people. So there's a group of figures that people tend to have the most difficulty with. These are the ones that tend to, I think, trip us up the most. And that's the primal animal, the mermaid, and the visionary revolutionary.

These are just parts of us that really take us into what psychologically is generally talked about as trans-personal psychology. These are archetypal qualities but they're so much bigger than an ordinary human being that they're hard to hold as an ordinary human being. We can, you know, we learned to do that. I have a very strong primal animal and mermaid, so that's kind of what started me down this road is my own grappling with my own nature. 

But then when we move into the other figures that are a little more human-sized, still bigger than we are, but a little more human-sized. We have the unhealable wound, who is also the wounded healer, it is both, paradox. We have the responsible adult elder. We have the adventurer philosopher seeker, we have the challenger warrior, we have the peace lover peacemaker, we also have the happy animal, We have a primal animal and a happy animal. We have the curious child. We have the pea princess. We have the nourisher. And then we have the solar child sovereign. 

And so if you just, whatever came to your mind as you were hearing those names, it's probably a pretty good response. And you can just see how different they all are. You know, if we've got the curious child and we've also got this unhealable wound, wounded healer situation, there's a lot of tension. There's a lot of contrast there. If you have the curious child on the primal animal, that's a different kind of tension, but it's still pretty tense.

Marie Murphy: Let me interject and say that my understanding of your work is that you see some people with a lot of these archetypes within them and in different relationships and some people with fewer of these archetypes within them. Right?

Karen Hawkwood: Yes. 

Marie Murphy: Say a little more about that. 

Karen Hawkwood: Yeah, so in my way of understanding people, this is a little bit like rolling a D&D character. You only have so many points and they go when they go into the buckets.

Marie Murphy: Tell people what a D&D character is. Tell people what D&D is.

Karen Hawkwood: D&D is called Dungeons and Dragons. It's essentially a role-playing game. It's where people come up with characters that have certain qualities, certain things about them. This one's a dwarf and this one's an archer and that one's a bard. And then they act out those characters. They sort of inhabit those characters. And there's one person who's creating the story, and it's a story where they're not just telling the story. At certain points, there's choices that the characters have to make. Are we gonna take this path or that path? Are we gonna fight or are we gonna run away?

And it's really fun for people who like stories because you get to be in the story, not just experiencing the story. But when you're creating a character, there's a whole structure that the people who made D&D came up with to make that easier. And it's hugely complex, so we're not going to talk about that. But they have these basic character qualities like intelligence is one, wisdom is one, and those are two different things. Dexterity, like physical dexterity. I rolled very low on that when I came into this body. My dexterity roll was not the high one.

And so you only have a certain number of like arbitrarily 100 points and you've got like 20 different of these qualities. So if you roll 50 on dexterity, you've only got 50 points to divide between all those other qualities. And that just seems to be how humans are. 

You'll occasionally, very rarely meet someone who seems to sort of have everything. Like they've got all the, they're really physical. They're also really intellectually intelligent. They're also really sort of emotionally perceptive, but they're unusual. Most of us have a certain set of concentrations in parts of us and other parts, not so much.

And so that's how my system works. So of the 13 archetypes that I work with, most people out of hundreds and hundreds now that I've assessed, as it were, through this lens, most people have between three and eight that are pretty prominent and they range from kind of what I call mid-ground strength to a foreground strength, really dominant. And so then they’ll have, whatever’s left over, five to 10 that are in the background or really just dormant, not present at all.

Marie Murphy: Let me just jump in and say, just to make sure people are following the thread here, this is KJ's unique way of doing astrology. This is, right? So these archetypes all come from the chart.

Karen Hawkwood: So these archetypes all come from the chart. They're astrologically structured. 

Marie Murphy: Yeah. 

Karen Hawkwood: No, you're right. Because it does sound like.I’m talking about two different things. But rather than like with the astrological chart itself, a lot of people talk about the actual mechanics of the chart. And this isn't going to make any sense to a lot of people and that's fine. I'm just illustrating. But they'll say, your sun is in Scorpio and that means this, and your moon is in Aquarius in the third house and that means this. That's fine.

I mean, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. But what I'm doing is taking all those different moving parts and sort of synthesizing them into these 13 archetypal figures, but it is based on the astrological chart.

Marie Murphy: Really nicely put. I think that's an important detail.

Karen Hawkwood: Okay. Thank you. No, I appreciate the clarification.

Marie Murphy: Did I cut you off? Yes, keep going.

Marie Murphy: No, I was just making sure. I was like, did I lose the plot? I do that when I get excited about what I'm talking about. I don't know, we're making the plot up. This is a choose your own adventure, so we get to decide. But you did ask about what this means for people experiencing infidelity in whatever part of that experience they're in.

And so what I have found in my experience of working with people and in my own life, and I have a weird relationship history like a lot of people do. I have been on all sides of the infidelity experience. I've been in open relationships and polyamorous relationships for a lot of my relational life. I'm flying solo right now and have been for a while.

So you know I started this through my own experience as well, but I've worked with tons and tons of people around relationship stuff. So one of the biggest things that I see that has contributed to infidelity experiences is this tension of needs that is part of our archetypal bone structure.

So just to pick one of those kind of sets of things we were talking about before, if my orientation towards relating, especially in partnership, is really watery, because that's just how I'm made. It's like I'm 5 foot 3, or I'm 6 foot 3, or whatever. That's just my temperament. I really need a strong emotional flow, a strong sense of being connected to the inner experience of my partner.

If they're not made that way, they're gonna have a hard time giving me that. It's not that they can't, not that they can't learn to, but they have to stretch. They have to stretch out of their own natural way of being. And I don't think that's a problem, to be clear. I think that's what relating is, is finding ways to stretch out of our own instinctive shape to meet people. But if the stretch is a really far one, it's hard to sustain.

And so the watery person, let's say we've got a watery person and an airy person here, and they both bring a lot to the relationship, but they tend to struggle because the watery person doesn't feel the emotional closeness as often or as deeply, not that it's not there, but as often or as deeply as they would like. 

The airy person maybe feels a little bit claustrophobic when they are trying to, you know, when they're kind of in emotional mode together and they might not get more of that idea based or that intellectual conversational relational experience as they would like and it has I want to be really clear by the way let me just pause and add a caveat here. 

Air has nothing to do with intelligence. Zero. None of this has anything to do with cognitive intelligence. As you can tell from my tone of voice I get very salty about the way that those have become equated. They're not.

Yeah, so however, regardless of intelligence regardless of education level an airy person loves to talk about ideas. Maybe their ideas are, they're a huge K-pop fan. They wanna talk about the latest album release, the latest video, whatever. It's not like we're sitting around talking about particle physics. Some people think that's great, but that's not the point. 

If the airy person's partner really isn't so much about talking about ideas, that airy person isn't gonna get that need met in the relationship, even when lots about the rest of it is really good. What happens if they meet somebody, a coworker, friend of a friend, a person where they're volunteering, whose mind is just like this fireworks factory? It's gonna be super, super appealing. That doesn't mean they have to cheat.

Marie Murphy: All of the language we use to describe the behaviors that we think of as infidelity is totally loaded. That's something that I've talked about many times on this podcast.

Karen Hawkwood: And I wanna be respectful of that. Like I'm so careful about language and the feelings that it leaves us with. 

Marie Murphy: We do the best we can with the very unfortunate language that we have.

Karen Hawkwood: Yeah, because the social construction, you and I agree so strongly on this that the whole social construction around infidelity is such bullshit. So choosing to go outside of your partnership in a way that is not formally agreed to, right? But it's meeting a part of you that is not getting met, and it's a really deep, valid need that you have. Now, does your way of getting that need met have to, or is it doomed to take that shape? No. But is it a valid set of needs? Yes.

Marie Murphy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. This is something that I stress with people literally every single day that I'm working. Like you may not like the behaviors you're engaging in, you may want to change the behaviors you're engaging in, but if you fail to recognize the legitimacy of the human needs driving the behaviors, like nothing good is gonna happen, period.

Karen Hawkwood: Huzzah. And I've seen people do this, you see people do this, they try so hard to cut off, to suppress, to eliminate that scary and frustrating and inconvenient need that their relationship, their primary partnership is not meeting, and it never goes well.

Marie Murphy: Right. And one of the things that I think is really cool about astrology is it elucidates the ways in which we can legitimately be different. And hopefully, I mean, this is part of my intention with this episode, it hopefully gives people more of a kind of vocabulary for recognizing that their need isn't just to do something devious.

Karen Hawkwood: That's it. Devious or deviant or anything.

Marie Murphy: Right. It's not just like you're doing something bad. It's like there's this part of you that's really legitimate and it's not getting satisfied somewhere in your life, right? Whether it's within your primary relationship or not, it's a very important part of you and you just happen to find someone else who you were able to connect with on this level. And yes, now you've got to figure out what you want to do about your infidelity situation and I can help you with that, but you have to recognize the fundamental validity of that part of you.

Karen Hawkwood: And this gets us back to our complexity. And again, to comment on the good or bad, I run into this a lot because this idea of good and bad, this polarized binary framework is really embedded in modern Western culture, I think especially in America. 

Marie Murphy: Yeah, but not exclusively. 

Karen Hawkwood: But I hear this a lot with astrology because astrologers are people who work with astrology are also still socialized and enculturated the way that they are, and they will bring that into their view and expression of astrology, but they often won't know that they're doing it, and so they don't talk about it. I talk about it as much as I can.

Marie Murphy: Yes, and that's one of the reasons why I appreciate Karen's work so much. I have been on the receiving end of being told that I have this really bad astrological situation going on, and it's just like, really?

Karen Hawkwood: So sorry.

Marie Murphy: Oh, you know, I mean, far worse has been done to me. We're all doing the best we can.

Karen Hawkwood: Fair, but I'm still horrified because you do not have a bad chart.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, No, it sucks. And I think that's a really important thing for us to stress. There's no such thing as a bad chart.

Karen Hawkwood: Correct. I don't work with the ideas of good or bad at all. And a lot of people ask me, I'll start to say, even if I say something like, you've got a strong primal animal, Well, is that good or bad? I don't, that's not even a question I can answer because that's not my framework. 

Now, I do acknowledge that with all of the dimensions that astrology can describe about us, there is a range of expression from healthy and self-aware to shadowy and compulsive. And the shadowy compulsive dimension of any of these aspects of human nature can be extremely destructive. But again, I'm not applying social standards. I mean destructive to you in your way of being, not by anybody else's rules.

Marie Murphy: Right, totally, totally, 100%.

Karen Hawkwood: So yeah, so this understanding that even when you have a set of needs or desires that scares you that threatens or, you know, potentially could destabilize a relationship you've built, a life that you've built, those are still legitimate and valid needs. And the only way to not just dash yourself to pieces on the rocks is to recognize and honor those needs. 

And then you actually allow some of the things that you've said, when you stop judging and stop struggling, paradoxically, things really do become easier. And when we stop judging and pushing away those needs, finding a way to meet them in a way that doesn't necessarily put us at odds with ourselves for our lives, it's a lot easier.

Marie Murphy: When we're willing to meet ourselves where we are and recognize ourselves for who we are, we gain a lot of options. And I mean, just anecdotally, I'll say like, you know, what I see for some people, and there's an astrological component to this that I do want us to touch on. So for some folks who are in a committed relationship that's supposed to be monogamous, they really want to find a way to stay in that relationship. And sometimes that works out, but when it works out, it has to be, and I don't like to say things ever have to be anything, but in this case, I actually mean it. 

It has to be predicated on working with your genuine wants and also recognizing what you genuinely don't want. It has to be predicated on what you legitimately desire and don't desire. And you can make all the compromises that you want when you're operating from that place. 

What doesn't work out well anyway is when people are like, well, I just have to stay in this committed relationship because my life is gonna crumble if I don't, and that would be really bad and inconvenient and oh my god, etc, etc, etc. Like, you're gonna dash yourself on the rocks eventually if that's what you tried to do to yourself.

Karen Hawkwood: Because you really don't want to be there if I'm following you correctly. Like, you think you have to for all these reasons, but you really don't want to.

Marie Murphy: You really don't, or at least, and I think this gets into something that we should get your take on here, but even if there's a part of you that wants that a little bit, it's just not enough to really do it. We have, I mean, and this is, again, one of the lovely parts of your work, we have like different parts of ourselves that may at times be in very strong tension with each other. And learning how to work with that can be challenging, but that doesn't mean that the way to make it all work is to just try to shut the difficult voices down.

Karen Hawkwood: I cannot agree with that more. Yes, underlined.

Marie Murphy: And what I see is that this is both cause and consequence of infidelity. And there's so many different examples that I could get into, but for the sake of time, I won't do that right now. Actually I will, because I think this is important to point out for some people that make a connection. 

I see folks all the time who committed to relationships, often marriages, that they really had no business committing to in the first place. I mean, I hear people tell me at least twice a week, I should never have married my partner.

And so not really recognizing who we are is definitely a contributing factor to setting ourselves up for the conditions in which infidelity is very likely to occur because we're humans and we have needs that we can't necessarily go our whole lives without meeting. Some people do and they're miserable as fuck and that's terrible.

Karen Hawkwood: Exactly, there's consequences even if you do suppress it. Like it doesn't make things better. It really doesn't. I just was gonna comment on one of the things that you said to you about how we are operating in a socialized structure that is largely not our friend and that sets us up. Now again, everyone's responsible for their own choices and we're also not captains of our own destiny as cleanly and uninterferedly as we would love to believe.

We are all being pushed and pulled by all these social forces. And so yeah, people end up in committed relationships and marriages as a form of that, because of those pressures, because of those expectations, and because one part of that person wanted that, and the other parts of them don't, and that one part sort of dragged the whole collection of them into the situation. Yeah. I often talk about who's driving the bus. I think of us as this very unruly bus of different figures, and there's always this back and forth about who's actually got the wheel and the way that different parts of us act.

Marie Murphy: Super important. I think what you mean to say is we're like, we've got our different archetypes within us. We've got our, what is it, like three to eight, most likely different archetypes within us, right? And it's like, they're all in the bus.

Karen Hawkwood: But there's only one bus.

Marie Murphy: Right. There's only one bus. There's one body and there's one steering wheel.

Karen Hawkwood: What action are we actually going to take in this moment? Because they're really in most cases, there's one action. There are 100 possible actions, but there's one action. So who's gonna decide who within us is deciding what action to take. And this is part of why this understanding that we are not one person, we are not one single unified individual is to me the most radical and the most important perception about human nature that we can have because our culture teaches us that we are, or at least that we should be.

And we expect ourselves to be, and we expect other people to be. And so when a person is showing us one side of them, which is to say one archetype has the wheel most of the time, probably, or even a pair of archetypes that get along well, right, that sort of share values so they'll trade off. But we have no idea who else is in the back of their bus because we just think this is what they're showing me, this is what they are. And I think this has been the experience of infidelity. Whoever, from whatever angle that I have seen a lot is, what in the hell?

Like, who is this? Whether it's, who am I that I have engaged in infidelity? Or who are you that you suddenly have done this when you've only ever shown me the side of you that has seemed perfectly content.

Marie Murphy: Right, right.

Karen Hawkwood: So even that idea that there is more in us than whoever has the wheel most of the time in our particular little setup is huge. And then to look at other people, to look at the close people in our lives, because a lot of the pain that we experience as human beings is because other human beings don't behave the way that we think they should or that we expected them to.

Marie Murphy: Right, for sure. There was something in there that you said that I really wanted to capture, and I think this will take us to a discussion of cycles, which is important. I didn't want to imply, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've heard me talk about all the things, but if you're just tuning in today for the first time, I want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that all infidelity is a result of people committing to committed relationships before they even like know their ass from their elbow. That's not the point. I also see, I mean, I see all kinds of things.

Let's be clear about that. Like infidelity situations are diverse and varied and I see a great diversity of them within my coaching practice. But another thing that I see quite a bit of is people are like, I don't know what happened. I thought I was really happy in my relationship and then all of a sudden I just met this other person and it was electric and it was amazing and it was just like, you know, it just like fell out of the sky and hit me on the head and I don't know what the hell happened but this is sure great but it's also really fucking confusing and I don't know what to do about it. 

So I think part of what I see anyway, is that part of that is that sometimes people weren't actually as happy as they were telling themselves they were sometimes, but sometimes they really were quite fine at least.

Karen Hawkwood: I don't wanna derail you, but what I would say and how I work with people is part of them was happy, probably. Part of them was probably really happy, but the parts that weren't happy were being silenced, which doesn't mean they weren't there.

Marie Murphy: Right, I mean, I do think that like some people tell themselves they're happy as a coping mechanism to deal with not being happy.

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely, and it's not true, and they know it's not true, they're just trying not to know.

Marie Murphy: And to your point, some people were perfectly fine or some parts of a person were perfectly fine.

Karen Hawkwood: And they were the ones that were driving.

Marie Murphy: Right. Until, all of a sudden, oh my God, this thing happened and these dormant parts of me got activated.

Karen Hawkwood: Yes, and suddenly they're driving and nobody in the bus knows what is going on. Really common.

Marie Murphy: Well, again, if you're listening to this episode today, and this is the first of my episodes that you've listened to, I don't wanna send the wrong impression here, but what sometimes happens is what people say to themselves is, well, obviously the solution here is that I should go back to my marriage because I was fine in that for so long. So therefore, that's the answer. Not so fast, folks. Not so fast. Because, from an astrological perspective, because…

Karen Hawkwood: Because the need that you have once it gets the wheel is not gonna go back into just being silent and dormant anymore. I can virtually, I mean, you can force it back into the back of the bus, but you're never again gonna be as blissfully unaware that it was there. You just can't unknow that side of yourself once it's had a taste of getting the wheel and getting to drive the bus where it wants to go and not where those more dominant parts of you wanna go. 

And so I've never seen people in my experience really successfully and by successfully I mean not make themselves miserable, be able to just stuff the genie back in the bottle.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, I'd love for you to say more about that because I think that the astrological perspective on this is such a valuable one and I get into what I would lovingly call arguments with clients about this a lot. They're like, no, really, like, I just can, like, it'll be fine. If only I hadn't had the affair and it's like, no, it just doesn't work that way. Like, that's not the deal. So say more, like, why is it not the case that we can just squelch these parts of ourselves?

Karen Hawkwood: My view of this really is because the psyche wants to be whole. There is always this upwelling, right? This kind of urge for us to be whole. And remember that wholeness, at least through my lens, which is a very sort of Neo-Jungian lens, is not about everything matching. It's precisely about, the wholeness is precisely about all of our paradox.

And the technical definition of paradox, for those who aren't familiar with just this sort of framing is two things, and of course there's always more than two things, but two things that cannot possibly both be true and they are. So paradox breaks our logical brains because it exists beyond logic. And so all of these paradoxical places where this and that cannot coexist and here they are, that's wholeness. And our psyches are, which is not the mind, right? The psyche is the whole self. 

It's always trying to be its whole being. When we suppress these parts of ourselves, which we all do, it's totally human. No shame, no judgment. It's part of being human to be frightened of parts of yourself, but they're always trying to come home. 

Marie Murphy: Right, yeah. 

Karen Hawkwood: So once one of them gets out, it's never gonna wanna go back in. It's just not.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, I love that. And what I wanna stress is that there are so many ways of figuring out how we deal with these parts of ourselves.

Karen Hawkwood: So many options.

Marie Murphy: None of this means if that, then obviously that's the response or the solution, so to speak. But the point here is it really doesn't work out very well to try and squelch parts of your deepest being.

Karen Hawkwood: And I would add, and I wanna, you know, again, I'll follow this up with a caveat because lots of nuance here. But another thing that I've seen is the automatic assumption. So there's the automatic assumption that I need to end the affair and go back into my partnership.

Marie Murphy: Sometimes.

Karen Hawkwood: Well, sometimes, sometimes. Yeah, that's one of the things that happens. 

Marie Murphy: Yes. 

Karen Hawkwood: Another one of the many things that can happen is I have to leave my partner for the person that I'm being in an infidelity situation with and cleave unto them, right? I have to leave this one and match up with this one.

And it's the same issue in a mirror image kind of thing, because a lot of time, not all the time, not every time, because there is tremendous diversity of all kinds of relationship situations, right? But a lot of times that person is as magnetic and intense and powerful and compelling as they are because they are sort of holding a missing piece of us, which doesn't mean there's not also things about them that are incredibly wonderful. 

I don't mean to dismiss that at all. But a lot of the intensity of the experience is because they are who they are and they are holding and sort of offering out to us this missing piece of ourselves, but it's only a piece. And if we then try to make that into a whole relationship, then we just have a different set of gaps.

Not all the time, sometimes, just sometimes, but that also can happen. So again, that's why this automatic assumption on any front, I think gets people in trouble.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, oh, totally, totally. One of the things that I see people struggling with a lot is how do I know if this is like a "classic affair" situation where there's somebody in a committed relationship considering leaving their committed relationship to be with their affair partner. One of the questions I get a lot is how do I know if this is real? And what I often say to that is, like, real is what we make it. We define what real is.

But I think the better question for you to ask yourself is, what's important to you about this other relationship? And why do you value that in your life right now? Or why might you value that in your life right now? And this might be an interesting segue into cycles, which I'd like to talk about at least quickly here, but then we should probably start to wind down. And one of the things that I stress to people is, you know, different things are important to us at different times in our lives, and that's okay.

And that may mean that you don't want to be in partnership with the same person for decades or years, or even months. It may be that at this point in your life, you want to be with a person who meets you in different ways or meets different parts of you. And that's okay. That's not illegitimate, right?

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely. It's also deeply human. This idea, this enculturated idea that we not only are one person, but we are one way of that one person for decades is simply not true. This is one where after 42 years of watching people through this lens, I can absolutely assert that is not how we work.

So this briefly, the cycles understanding. So astrology is incredibly useful as this system of temperament of archetypal nature, not only because it can help us understand these inner figures and the way that they push and pull on each other innately, but also over the arc of our lives, there's this unfolding story.

You can think of it as like a movie or a book or a series of novels. You can have the basic story, you know, the child of the monarchs was stolen and lost and they're now wandering and, you know, they're tending the stable somewhere, but they have this destiny that's calling them and they're going to get catalyzed into that destiny and then they're going to meet certain people and there's going to be a love affair and then they're going to lose the love affair and there's going to be battles.

We know the basic arc of the story from beginning to end, kind of at the start, but what chapter are we in? Is it a battle chapter? Is it a passionate romance chapter? Is it a love-lost, grieving chapter? It matters what chapter we're in. And astrology actually has a whole system to it for understanding what chapter we're in of our own story.

So if you are a person whose general nature is more oriented towards that earthy kind of stability, consistency, maybe you've got earth and water, which play pretty well together for the most part. And so what you really want is your person to be your person, to have just that solid, grounded commitment, knowing that you're together, that you share your hearts, you know how they feel, they know how you feel.

And then you go through a cycle the way that we look at them, where it's a chapter in your story that's about all the unlived possibility in your nature and in your life coming and knocking on your door. And it inhabits you. And these cycles usually go for anywhere from six to nine months to like three or four years.

And all of a sudden, you are feeling so restless. Everything about this person and the life that you've built feels totally claustrophobic. All you can do is just think about every other thing that you could do, all these other people you could be with, and you're thinking, what is happening? What it's doing is waking up a part of you that is normally dormant and bringing it to the front of the stage and giving it all the lines.

It's not that your need for consistency and emotional closeness is gone. It's just that those parts of you have kind of faded back to the back of the stage for a period of time. Now what I've seen happen a lot, where a different, I'm going to talk even about a different archetype, a different set of needs. The archetype that I talk about as the mermaid has among other things, as a part of us, this tremendous longing for a kind of dissolving, this kind of just fusion of dissolving into the desired whatever.

Marie Murphy: Sure, which can be a number of different things, including but not limited to a person.

Karen Hawkwood: But people are very tempting sort of vessels.

Marie Murphy: Solvent agents. Yeah.

Karen Hawkwood: Solvent agents. That is beautiful. They are very tempting solvents. And so if you're not normally a person who the mermaid is very loud, right? So you're not used to feeling this way. You're pretty solid with like a pretty stable relationship that's not hugely covered with these oceanic kind of surges of longing to just fuse with your beloved you're like what some people might be like that not me and then suddenly you start feeling that way then you meet someone who meets you there in whatever way, right, for whatever reason that works, the click happens.

But in that cycle, while you're in that chapter of self, you feel like this is the thing you were missing and this is the thing you need. And you try to plant yourself there and then the cycle subsides and you're in a different chapter and that part of you then comes back from the front of the stage, goes kind of back towards the edges where it normally lives and you're not feeling that state of being anymore. 

But you've now made a different commitment out of a state of being that was not a permanent state of being. Now, does this mean people can't have lifelong relationships that are incredibly beautiful? No, because we all know people like that. But for a lot of us, navigating these waves of different parts of ourselves being called to the front of the stage is really tricky.

Marie Murphy: Right. Absolutely. And like navigating, especially when we don't know what the hell is going on. Like, when we don't know what's going on within ourselves or where we are within our cycles or the cycles.

Karen Hawkwood: Why are we feeling this? That there even is such a thing.

Marie Murphy: Exactly. It can be very...

Karen Hawkwood: It's scary. It's disorienting. 

Marie Murphy: It can seem scary and disorienting, but also what I see a lot is people saying like, how the hell can I possibly make any decisions when I'm in this state? And I mean, it's fair enough to consider that challenging, but it's still doable. So none of this is to say, right? None of this is to say. 

Karen Hawkwood: You're not helpless. 

Marie Murphy: We’re not helpless. We're always able to do the very best we can in any given moment, even if we don't think that looks particularly great.

Karen Hawkwood: Absolutely. Absolutely. And a lot of times, I mean, we could talk about the whole thing. That'd be a whole 'nother conversation. And I know we're finishing today, but the feeling of paralysis, that feeling of just being completely frozen by all of the challenge of all of the dimensions of these very complex situations and feeling like we can't act like we just literally can't act and I have been there and I absolutely have so much empathy for that and it's also not true. And these cycles play a part in that because what we want is that steady state.

We think we're supposed to be one person in one way and make our decisions from there so we try to wait. And listen, I'm telling all of you, stop waiting because these waves…

Marie Murphy: Just keep on coming. 

Karen Hawkwood: It's the nature of being human. There's no perfect solution. That's what I was trying to say is people try to wait for some sort of perfect decision-making solution and there isn't one. There isn't one. So.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, totally, totally. That could be a whole other thing.

Karen Hawkwood: Whole other thing. Whole other thing. Or today, we can at least give it that nod.

Marie Murphy: Yes, yes, Karen, this has been awesome. I really hate to even stop it here, but maybe we'll do this again sometime. For now, tell everyone again where they can find you to learn more about you and your work.

Karen Hawkwood: Yeah, my website is KarenHawkwood.com. K-A-R-E-N-H-A-W-K-W-O-O-D.com.

Marie Murphy: Thanks so much, Karen. And what do I usually say at the end of these things? I don't know. It's been a funny day. Thank you all so much for listening. Have an amazing day. Until next time, bye for now.