208: Sex Work and Infidelity Part 1

Hi everyone, I’m Dr. Marie Murphy, and I’m a non-judgmental infidelity coach.  If you are engaging in anything you think counts as infidelity, I can help you deal with your feelings, clarify what you want, and make decisions about what you’re going to do.  No shame, no blame, no judgments. A lot of the so-called advice out there for people who are cheating is little more than thinly veiled judgment, but that is not what I provide.  I give you guidance and support that respects the fullness of your humanity and the complexity of your situation – no matter what you’re doing.  

When you’re ready to resolve your infidelity situation in a way that’s truly right for you, there are two ways you can have me as your coach: you can enroll in my self-guided course, or we can work together one-on-one via Zoom. To get started with either of these options, go to my website, mariemurphyphd.com. Together we will find you some relief and a clear path forward.

Okay people, today we going to talk about sex work and infidelity, or more accurately, we are going to talk a little bit about sex work and infidelity.  There’s so much we could say about sex work, and there’s so much we could say about sex work and infidelity, and there’s NO WAY we’re going to touch on all of the things that could be said about these topics or the intersections between them.  I’ve called this episode Sex Work and Infidelity Part 1 because I hope to follow this episode up with other episodes about sex work and infidelity because there are so many important points that we just aren’t going to get to today.

I’d been meaning to put together an episode or two about sex work and infidelity for years, literally, but a podcast listener recently sent in some questions about infidelity and sex work, and that nudged me into action.  This episode is going to be primarily geared towards responding to that listener’s specific questions, and then, at the end of the episode, I’m going to answer another listener’s questions which are very important, but unrelated to sex work.  

Before I dive into responding to the listener’s questions about infidelity and sex work, there are a few very important things about sex work in general that I want to say.

The first is that sex work, or exchanging sex for money or other resources, has been going on for a looonnngg time.  They don’t call prostitution “the oldest profession” for nothing.  And, there has been, at least in some segments of society, a lot of stigma associated with sex work for a long time.  Maybe this is changing?  Somewhat?  

I don’t have any empirical evidence to support this, but I will cautiously say that anecdotally, it SEEMS to me that there are more public, visible conversations about sex work happening now than there were, say, twenty years ago, and it seems like there is more recognition of sex work as a legitimate form of work than there were twenty years ago.  But that’s just my casual observation, and even if I’m partially right, or onto a verifiable trend, it’s also true that stigma associated with sex work in general and sex workers in particular persists.  And that’s important for a lot of reasons.  

Before I go any further I should say that if you’re new to this podcast or new to me, you may not yet know that I have a Ph.D. in the sociology of sexuality.  I do, and sex work was a focus of my study and my teaching for a while, so my thinking about sex work has broad and deep influences from social theory and empirical social science research on many dimensions of sex work.  And frankly, it’s hard for me to quell my desire to launch into a series of sociological lectures on sex work, but that’s not what this podcast is for, so we’re not going to do that.  But I do want to draw our attention to a few key contextual points.

As you are probably well aware, there is an idea out there that it is inherently demeaning or degrading to trade sex for money.  A lot of people have presented this as an absolute truth, but that doesn’t mean they’re right.  The idea that it is fundamentally demeaning or degrading to exchange sex for money is socially constructed, as the sociologists say, or is an optional belief, to put it in the terms I use as a coach.  

What the empirical research shows is that not all sex workers experience their work to be demeaning or degrading in the ways some people assume it is – and moreover, research shows that some people who exchange sex for money do not experience this to be problematic at all.  That said, not everyone who engages in sex work does so because they choose to – and I’ll say more about that later – so not everyone who sells sex is going to have the same experience of doing that.  

Similarly, there’s an idea out there that it’s intrinsically problematic to pay for sex.  And again, maybe this is way of thinking is less prevalent than it used to be, given that sex work and the consumption of sexual services is more visible within our culture than it used to be.  

But I continue to have clients, of varying ages, who tell me how weird they feel about paying for sex, or having paid for sex.  And some people say they just feel a little funny about it, but some people tell me they feel deeply ashamed of it.  So even if social norms are changing, I think we’re still operating within a realm in which paying for sex is seen as at least somewhat taboo.  Or sometimes VERY taboo.

But again, just because it’s sometimes considered taboo doesn’t mean that it is truly or fundamentally problematic to pay for sex.  We can recognize that there are certain beliefs out there about the okay-ness of sex work, and the consumption or provision of sexual services, and we can also recognize that just because these ideas exist does not mean that they are correct in any absolute way.

Now, even if we don’t have to believe that it inherently bad to exchange sex for money, we do want to be aware that the sex work industry is vast and diverse, and the experiences of sex workers vary tremendously.  Some sex workers have a very high degree of choice about doing the work they do.  They’re doing what they’re doing to make money because they want to, but if they stopped wanting to, they would have other viable options for making the money they need or want.

However, that is not true of everyone who sells sex.  Some sex workers have some choice about the work they’re doing, but their choices are shaped by a dearth of other viable means of making money, and by their economic necessities.  It’s fair to say that all of our choices are constrained by external forces to some extent, but some of our choices are constrained more than others.  

If I have four kids and no partner and no other human helping with my financial needs and the only so-called legitimate job I can get pays less than a living wage, engaging in sex work may be a choice, but it’s a choice driven by my extreme need, and the lack of economic opportunities available to me.  And of course, some people are forced to provide sexual services, and aren’t making any money off of the sex work they’re engaging in.  Or are making very, very little money, and have little, if any, control over their working conditions.

Each of the points I’ve just made are worthy of a lot more discussion, but we’re not going to do that here and now.  For now, what I want you to consider is that if you are a consumer of sex work, you may want to be a very conscious consumer of sex work.  There’s a lot of inequality within the realm of sex work, and you may want to be very aware of the humanity of your human service providers.  That certainly isn’t unique to the consumption of sexual services, of course!  We could all, as we engage with all kinds of service providers, do well to remember the humanity of the humans providing us with the services we avail ourselves of.

If you are interested in learning more about sex work, or delving into some new perspectives on sex work, there is some great social science literature on the topic, and I will mention just a few of them.  

The book Whores and Other Feminists by Jill Nagle is great.  So is the work of the sociologist Elizabeth Bernstein.  Elizabeth’s work is academic, but it’s accessible reading, and she’s written a few books including Temporarily Yours: Intimacy, Authenticity, and the Commerce of Sex.  Live Sex Acts: Women Performing Erotic Labor, by the sociologist Wendy Chapkis, is also great.  These are not the only bits of reading related to sex work that are worth a read, but they’re a good start.

Okay, with these points as context, let’s turn to the listener’s questions about infidelity and sex work. The first question from this listener is, is seeing a sex worker infidelity since there is not emotional attachment and it's "just sex"? 

Here’s my answer to the first part of that question – “is seeing a sex worker infidelity?” - you get to decide.  People have different definitions of infidelity.  You also get to decide whether or not it matters to you if your definition of infidelity and your committed partner’s definition of infidelity – if you have a committed partner – are different.  

It’s entirely possible that you might decide to give yourself a pass on having sex with sex workers, or to not consider that infidelity – but if you have a partner and they found out about what you were up to, they might not see it the same way.  So what do you want to do about that?  That’s the needle you get to figure out how you want to thread!  And that’s the kind of thing I help people think through all the time, so if you want my help seriously considering this kind of question, let’s work together.  But I don’t have an absolute answer for you on this one, other than telling you that you get to decide what you think.  

In regards to the second part of this question, I do encourage you to consider that although sex with a sex worker MIGHT be “just sex,” without any emotional connection, it also might not be!  Plenty of people DO develop feelings for sex workers, and although sometimes those feelings are one-sided, sometimes they’re reciprocated, and sometimes pretty powerful connections are formed.  

So if your intention is to avail yourself of the services of sex workers as a means of having your sexual desires fulfilled without getting into an emotional relationship, keep in mind that you may have actively avoid getting emotionally involved with the sex workers you interact with.  You may have to actively set boundaries, rather than assuming that certain boundaries are naturally in place.   

This person’s second question was, is it "worse" than an affair due to risk of STDs? Maybe exploring the cliche that sex workers are "dirtier" than "normal" girls (not a truth but the public perception).

So I think what this person is asking is something to the effect of, is having sex with sex workers worse than having an affair with someone who is not a sex worker because having sex with a sex worker comes with a higher risk of contracting a sexually transmissible infection.  But then it sounds like this person answers their own question by saying that it isn’t true that sex workers are “dirtier” than people who are not sex workers.

There are a lot of things I could say in response here, but I’ll keep it at this: practice safe sex.  Whoever you’re having sex with.  Do not make assumptions about what sexually transmissible infections a person might have, or have been exposed to.  There are different ways of having safe sex, or safer sex, but assuming who you need or don’t need to practice safer sex with is not one of them.

Third question: Is it "better" because you don't run the risks of drama coming into your marriage/relationship from the other party?

Okay, here I’m going to assume that the person asking the question means, is having sex with a sex worker better than getting involved with someone who isn’t a sex worker, because engaging with a sex worker presumably comes with pretty clear terms of engagement, and all of the parties involved are invested in abiding by those terms of engagement.  And if that’s what the question means, my answer is maybe.  

It all depends on what you want out of your relationships, or your dalliances, or your sexual experiences, or whatever kind of extra-curricular activities you’re engaging in!  That said, yes, plenty of people DO appreciate the clear boundaries associated with engaging with sex workers.  Those boundaries and limits are part of what make the exchange so appealing, to many consumers of sexual services.  

But is seeing sex workers better than any of the unspecified alternatives?  That depends on you and what you want in your life.  There isn’t any absolute “better” or “not better” here.  Whenever we’re trying to figure out what’s better or worse for us, it can be really helpful to specify what we want.

Here’s the fourth question from the same listener: Does this make it better or worse on a grand scale, since due to the reduced risk you have the ability to sustain infidelity longer without being pushed to the point of having to make decisions?

There’s a lot of additional information I’d like to have in order to speak to this question.  But without that information, I’ll say this – I don’t believe there is an absolute better or worse here.  You get to decide what’s better or worse for you in any given situation in your life, of course, but that requires you to get clear on what you want and don’t want.  What you prefer or don’t prefer.  And then you get to make decisions in the service of what you think is better for you, and take action in the service of those decisions.  

The latter part of this question suggests that the person asking it may be trying to put off making decisions about a committed relationship.  And that takes us into territory that has little to do with sex work.  If you’re trying to put off making a decision about whether you want to stay in a relationship or not, I want you to ask yourself if you like your reasons for putting off that decision.  If you do, fair enough.  

We can’t tackle everything in our lives simultaneously.  And if you want to see sex workers while you’re consciously putting off your decision about staying in your committed relationship, you can.  That’s your choice.  And you get to choose if you think that counts as infidelity or not.  Or whether it’s something you’re okay with doing.  You’re the person you need permission from.

On the other hand, if you’re trying to put off making a decision about your committed relationship for reasons you don’t like, or aren’t really even conscious of, I’ll say this.  My opinion is that it’s usually better to handle the life business that we know we need to handle sooner rather than later.  My opinion is that trying to put off decisions we know we want to tackle indefinitely isn’t a great idea.  

And these are my opinions, they are not laws of the universe that you must follow or else.  But, my opinions are informed by my observations of how these situations go for a lot of people.  So what I suggest is that if you think you have some decisions to make about a committed relationship you’re in, consider that it might be time to approach those decisions instead of avoiding them.  And then see sex workers or don’t as you’re doing that.  

The fourth question is, conversely, is it legitimate to decide you want to stay in your marriage but also want to see sex workers, as your "new normal"? Is making that decision "really” a decision or just a way to delude yourself into thinking you've made a decision?

Here’s my answer to the first part of this question.  There is no way for any of us to say, in any absolute sense, what it is legitimate for you to do or not do.  I know other people love to argue otherwise, but here’s the deal: humans can do whatever they want, and they make this abundantly clear ALL THE TIME.  

What I encourage you to consider is that you get to decide for yourself if it is legitimate for you to stay married and see sex workers – and I’m assuming that this person means seeing sex workers without their spouse’s knowledge.  I will tell you that plenty of people decide that this is legitimate for them – but that doesn’t make it right or wrong in any absolute sense.  You get to make your own choices about what’s legitimate for you.

There are other options here, though.  If you want someone else to agree that your choices are legitimate, you could always ask your spouse if they would be okay with you seeing sex workers.  If you want someone’s approval for your decisions, you might seek theirs.  Arguably, if you’re going to make anyone else’s approval matter, it’s theirs that counts!  That’s debatable of course, but you might want to consider that.  

So for instance, if you’re married to someone you care about deeply, but your sex life is non-existent, you might want to have a talk with your spouse about that and let them know that you’d like to have an understanding about what you’re doing.  You don’t have to do this, of course – but if some sort of reassurance from another person that your choices are legitimate, you might want to seek that from your spouse.  And you might indeed get it from your spouse!  You also might not, but you won’t know for sure unless you ask.  But, it is also totally possible for you to decide that as far as you are concerned, what you are doing is okay with you, and you can let that be the end of the matter if you choose.

My answer to the second part of the question is, if you’ve decided that you’re going to stay married and also have sex with sex workers, that sure sounds like a decision to me.  If you’ve decided that that’s your new normal, that is a decision, is it not?  It sure as heck sounds like one to me.  But if what you’re really doing is struggling with what you want to do about your marriage, and seeing sex workers while you avoid deciding what you want to do about your marriage, that could be another story entirely.

Last question from this listener: Are sex workers infidelity enablers in that sense?  And if so, is there anything wrong with that?  

Okay.  There are a lot of opinions out there on the topic of whether sex workers enable – or even CAUSE infidelity – and some of these opinions are embedded with all kinds of assumptions.  And many of these assumptions have a very strong anti-sex and misogynistic flavor to them.  

Historically, most of the sellers of sexual services have been women, and most of the consumers of sexual services have been men, and historically, folks have often found it very convenient to blame awful evil sex workers – who just so happen to be women – for being corrupting influences on families.  Without assigning much responsibility to the people purchasing the sexual services, who have historically often been men.  So we’ve gotta acknowledge that this is a really loaded question in a lot of ways.

Even more generally, I think the question of what counts as “enabling” infidelity is a tricky one.  One dictionary definition of “enable” is to give someone the authority or means to do something, but I think we’ve collectively imbued the concept of enabling with even more meaning than that.  

So on the one hand, do sex workers give people the means to engage in infidelity?  Sure they do.  But there are plenty of other ways and means to engage in infidelity.  There are plenty of other so-called “enablers” of infidelity.  When we talk about enabling, I think we often think of enticing or coaxing or even coercing someone into doing something, not just giving someone the means to do something.  And that’s where this question turns into a real thicket.  

So if you’re wondering whether sex workers enable infidelity, I encourage you to ask yourself how that question is relevant to you and your life, rather than trying to answer that question in general terms, or for all time and space.  It may be that there really is some value in exploring that question as it relates to you and your life, but it also may be that spending too much time on this question is not going to move the needle anywhere in your life in any direction. 

Okay, that’s it on the subject of sex work today.  As I said earlier, my plan, as of this moment, is to talk more about sex work in future episodes.  This is a big topic and today’s episode is certainly not the last word on the subject, or even any facet of it.  But now, I’m going to turn to a question from a listener that’s on a totally different subject.

Here’s what the listener wrote to me:

Since November 2023 I have been having an affair with a coworker. We both have prominent jobs. He’s been married 25 years with 4 kids. I’ve been married 8 years with no kids. 

In January 2024, he called it off with me after his wife became suspicious of his activities. He said he was ending things with me because he was “hurting her.” After that, we continued contact and our physical affair began again in August.

In October, his wife found our private WhatsApp chat. He told me she didn’t know any other details - only that he had been texting me privately - but that she wanted him to call me and make it clear we won’t chat anymore, while she listened in on speakerphone. 

I had listened to your podcast episode “So you got caught cheating” and knew this type of request wasn’t out of the ordinary upon discovery. I told him I wasn’t comfortable with what he proposed, and know the only reason he preempted the call was so that I wouldn’t implicate us any further. 

Ultimately, I chose not to pick up when he called, knowing his wife would be listening in. He called a few other times that week. I thought that would be the end of it, but several weeks later after I told him I understood we wouldn’t have continued contact, he messaged me again in November saying he would be trying to call me again with his wife listening in. 

He said he doesn’t have a choice and he’s doing this to make his wife trust him again. She’s also been accompanying him on all out of town work trips including two that I would be attending so she could “watch him.” 

I have not attempted to reach out at all. He has decided not to disclose the details of our relationship, otherwise he wouldn’t be calling to alert me ahead of time. Moving on has been difficult since we still work together.

I already lost my affair partner who I loved. I wish he’d stop trying to rub salt in the proverbial wound to placate his wife at my expense. Is this “normal” behavior from an affair partner several weeks later when he’s no longer in “panic mode” after immediate discovery? Are these serious attempts to “save his marriage” when he still messages me ahead of calling so I won’t out us?

Okay.  It’s hard to say what counts as normal behavior.  Normal is a pretty funny concept.  But even if I have no idea what counts as normal behavior, I can tell you that I see people doing this kind of thing with regularity.  And by this kind of thing, I mean, someone continuing to hound their ex-affair partner for a phone call to demonstrate to their spouse that the affair really is over.  

What I see is that people sometimes get a little frantic when their spouse has found out they’ve been having an affair, and may go to great lengths to placate their spouse.  It’s hard to know what the intentions behind his actions are – maybe he is trying to save is marriage, maybe his spouse is very much on his case and he is still very much in panic mode, maybe he has no idea what the hell he’s doing.  And trying to figure out exactly why he’s doing what he’s doing may be impossible.  

That said, you, as the hurt ex-affair partner, may want NOTHING to do with your ex-affair partner’s attempts to do whatever he’s trying to do with his spouse. And that’s fair enough.  So let’s see what your options might include here.

The first thing you may want to do is to stop asking yourself questions that you aren’t likely to be able to answer, and aren’t likely to get anything out of asking.  To echo what I said a moment ago, asking yourself “Are these serious attempts to ‘save his marriage’ when he still messages me ahead of calling so I won’t call us out?” may be a question that you can’t answer, and may not get much out of asking.

Similarly, if your affair partner believes that he doesn’t have a choice about trying to call you with his wife listening in, that’s his business – and you don’t have to let that be your problem.  It sounds like what you’ve been doing when he calls is simply not answering the phone, and you might want to continue to not answer the phone.  In terms of how you engage with him, it might be as simple as continuing to do what you’re doing – or, perhaps more accurately – continuing to not do what you aren’t doing.  

Instead of thinking about him, you may want to start actively devoting your efforts towards deliberately grieving the end of the affair, and deciding what moving on looks like for you.  Instead of worrying about him and however he’s choosing to handle his life, let’s focus on taking care of YOU.  And if you don’t have the faintest idea of where to start with that, book yourself an introductory coaching session with me and let’s talk about that.

Now on the other hand, if you think it might be helpful to communicate with him about his behavior, you can certainly consider doing that.  Maybe it’s worth it to sit him down and let him know that you’re not going to pick up the phone when he calls, and ask him to kindly stop trying to involve you in whatever he’s trying to do with his spouse.  

Here’s the thing, though: for better or worse, he can continue calling you.  Even if you ask him not to in a reasonable and respectful manner, he may not stop.  He may really believe that he “has to” get you on the phone and make some statement to you with his wife listening in, and if he believes that, he may well keep trying, and your best bet may be to figure out how you want to deal with the possibility that this will be an ongoing effort.  You may want to start to practice ignoring him if and when he reaches out.  

If you have to communicate about work, that’s one thing, but if he contacts you for reasons that have nothing to do with your professional relationship, you may want to practice not responding.  And you may want to practice not getting too interested in the fact that he’s trying to engage with you.  This kind of disengaging from someone you’ve loved or still love does take a bit of skill, and does take practice.  But by deciding to not get invested in whatever it is he’s trying to do, you free up more of your capacity to attend to yourself – to grieve the affair, and perhaps, to take a look at what’s going on in your own marriage, if you want to.  

All right everybody, that is it for today.  If you would like my help working through any aspect of your infidelity situation, let’s work together.  There are two ways you can have me as your coach: we can work together one-on-one via Zoom, or you can enroll in my self-guided course, You’re Not the Only One.  To get started with either of these options, go to my website, mariemurphyphd.com.  I can’t wait to meet you.

Thank you all so much for listening!  Bye for now.